Curse

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

How is SP more brainless then skills like Ether Prodigy/Heal Party, Rush (and any other speedboost), Apply Poison, Cripshot, Gale, ect, ect, ect, ect. There are some skills that require skill to use it seems. Interrupts are the easiest to notice. Monks are an example too. According to you 90% of the skills in GW don't take any skill to use.

Prodigy/Party didnt demand much player skill, but there were many other parts of athe Prodigy bar which did. In general, E/Mos reward player skill by requiring alot of multitasking ability and battlefield awareness.

Rush might give the same 25% boost to a bad warrior that it gives to a good warrior, but a good warrior makes much better use of his stance by knowing when its best to use it. I'd say one of the number one factors seperating good wars from bad ones is knowing when to hit their stances (frenzy, speedboost). Bad warriors often end up chasing kiters while in Frenzy, or hitting stationary targets while in Rush - very wasteful. Good warriors can do the opposite.

Apply Poison is one of the best skills in the game at rewarding multitasking. Some rangers can poison so many people at once, you might be fooled into thinking they ran disease - all while still simultaenously performing their interupt and/or crippling duties. Other rangers never seem to be able to poison more than 1 or 2.

Crippling Shot is one of the best "reward-player-skill-" abilities in the game. It is a short duration and quick recharge damage mitigation skill, which innately makes it reward player skill because a player must constantly remember who hes used it on and when he needs to try and reapply it. It is also rather expensive, so a ranger cannot afford to just spam it out - he must choose his spots carefully. Also, he can choose to use more or less of them, he just has to balance that against the energy remaining for the rest of his skills. Crippling Shot rewards player skill even more by requiring that he or his teammates kite well in order to make any use of it at all. It can even reward player skill on the enemy team since teams that are better at removal can power through it better than teams that are poor at removing the cripple in a timely fashion.

Gale is another great spell at rewarding player skill. Its a pretty costly spell that you usually cant spam because of exhaustion, so you have to choose its timing carefully. Using the KD at any old time on some random guy doesnt help at all, so in the hands of a moron Gale is pretty weak. However, if used at the correct time, like when the enemy monks are breaking, or to deny an enemy caster or monk the moment that they MUST cast at, Gale is devastating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

That's fantastic and all but GW isn't an RTS. Having the choice of playing a risky specialized build (aka gimmick) that can exploit an opponent's weaknesses is a fundamental part of the game. Build advantage is a fundamental game mechanic. Skill should come first so one should rarely if ever be at an unsurmountable disadvantage (aka balanced builds should have the tools to handle everything), but builds need to be able to have material impact simply to allow the sorts of out of match strategizing and mind games that you would remove entirely.

Skill should be the number one deciding factor in deciding the outcome of any given match, but it isnt right now. Im suggesting ways to fix that. What-is-so-difficult-to-understand-about-this. I would much rather reward those that outplayed their opponent in the game, rather than those who outguessed them beforehand. And I disagree that builds should have a direct material impact. They should be elements of style, nothing more.

Quote:

Do you seriously not understand that if a skill is unplayably bad then any pissing and moaning about whether it requires skill to use is completely and utterly moot? I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

This part doesnt make any sense. I believe you are trying to tell me that I should stop complaining about skills that dont require skill, because they dont see any play? If that is indeed what you are saying, then Im confused. I've been making the case for rewarding player skill for a long time before this thread, and my targets for offending skills have included Avatar of Grenth, Aegis, Light of Delieverance, Heal Party, Shadow Prison, Ritualist spirits, Necro Hexes, Energizing Finale, Steady Stance, Mantra of Recovery, and Conjures. Forgive me, but those skills dont seem to quite fit into the category you imply.

Zuranthium · Apr 14, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Random? Please read the key sequence again.

Nor does that change the point, which is that SP is, in fact, brainless.

Did anyone say they were?

Yeah, let's think about these ideas.

If SP is "not a problem" but simply "brainless", then what is the entire argument about? The "brainless" players will simply lose to the ones with skill. People are arguing that the game should be all about skill, after all. So THEREFORE, if the best builds are ones that require a lot of skill...certain mindless, but at times effective, builds should simply be ignored/beaten.

But aside from that, playing a SP sin is not brainless. There are potentially many different bars out there that simply use the Elite skill called Shadow Prison. To lump them all together, as you have done, is ignorant and incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Prodigy/Party didnt demand much player skill, but there were many other parts of athe Prodigy bar which did. In general, E/Mos reward player skill by requiring alot of multitasking ability and battlefield awareness.

A Shadow Prison bar can benefit from those very same things. Have a look at this:

Crit Strikes = 13
Dagger = 12
Deadly = 9

Shadow Prison
Disrupting Dagger/Web of Disruption
Black Lotus Strike
Death Blossom
Black Spider Strike
Impale
Siphon Speed
Rez Sig

Lots of different things you can be doing with that. Interrupt, snare both offensively and defensively, solo-kill an overextended opponent, aid a spike with Black Lotus + Death Blossom and then immediately do your own mini-spike of Black Spider + Blossom + Impale on a different target...

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Apr 14, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Zuranthium, just if you haven't noticed, everyone else is talking about the cookie-cutter SP bar.

DutchSmurf · Apr 14, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Rush might give the same 25% boost to a bad warrior that it gives to a good warrior, but a good warrior makes much better use of his stance by knowing when its best to use it. I'd say one of the number one factors seperating good wars from bad ones is knowing when to hit their stances (frenzy, speedboost). Bad warriors often end up chasing kiters while in Frenzy, or hitting stationary targets while in Rush - very wasteful. Good warriors can do the opposite.

I use Rush to react on, could have taken the others too. But that would make this post too long. Basically what you are saying here is that a good warrior will make better use of Rush then a bad warrior. And you agree that Rush on its own gives the same to a bad player as a good player. Now lets go back to the original skill, Shadow Prison. Shadow Prison on its own gives the same effect to a bad player as to a good player, think we can agree on that. So now the question is, can a good player make better use of Shadow Prison then a bad player? The answer to that is of course yes, no doubt about that.
So just like Rush, Shadow Prison becomes better when the player is better. And according to you Rush isn't brainless. So you have yet to answer the original question. Why is Shadow Prison more brainless then a skill like Rush?

And now for something completely different. I think Apply Poison is a brainless skill. Just think about it. You use it once every 24 seconds and suddenly your ranger becomes a lot better then it was before. Just by hitting one skill about twice a minute. A monkey can do that too, no problem. And it isn't like you can do more then one thing with the skill. All it does is making your arrows do poison after all. You can argue that you can use the effect in different ways, but that has nothing to do with the way you use the skill. You can just hit the other team one by one and spread poison, just tab+space+tab+space, no skill there. Compared to that hitting 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 takes lots of skill. And for the ones thinking I'm serious at this last part, check your sarcasm-alarm.

TLLOTS · Apr 14, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If SP is "not a problem" but simply "brainless", then what is the entire argument about?

The problem people have with Shadow Prison is that it rewards far too much for so little skill.

Seamus Finn · Apr 14, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

I think Apply Poison is a brainless skill. Just think about it. You use it once every 24 seconds and suddenly your ranger becomes a lot better then it was before. Just by hitting one skill about twice a minute. A monkey can do that too, no problem. And it isn't like you can do more then one thing with the skill. All it does is making your arrows do poison after all. You can argue that you can use the effect in different ways, but that has nothing to do with the way you use the skill. You can just hit the other team one by one and spread poison, just tab+space+tab+space, no skill there. Compared to that hitting 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 takes lots of skill. And for the ones thinking I'm serious at this last part, check your sarcasm-alarm.

Well your "something different" section fails miserably I'm afraid. Conjure whatever is a brainless buff. Kindle Arrows is closer. Either can be optimized by a good player, I suppose, but basically put these on and you do more damage. Apply is not brainless on a ranger for many reasons. First, as a 2 second cast, if your opponents are decent you need to make sure you get it off. Once past that obstacle, you need to spread the poison across the team, as opposed to mindless pounding a single target. One must also understand that the same time this character is usually depended on for key interrupts on targets. Thus, the builds damage source is in direct conflict with its main utility and requires a good player to balance the two concepts the whole match. Of course this is not even taking into consideration all the split responsibilities that are put on the same bar. So yeah, very wrong about that. If you want to put it on a crip slash and train with apply I guess i can see brainless(and stupid as well), but on a ranger?

DutchSmurf · Apr 14, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Well your "something different" section fails miserably I'm afraid. Conjure whatever is a brainless buff. Kindle Arrows is closer. Either can be optimized by a good player, I suppose, but basically put these on and you do more damage. Apply is not brainless on a ranger for many reasons. First, as a 2 second cast, if your opponents are decent you need to make sure you get it off. Once past that obstacle, you need to spread the poison across the team, as opposed to mindless pounding a single target. One must also understand that the same time this character is usually depended on for key interrupts on targets. Thus, the builds damage source is in direct conflict with its main utility and requires a good player to balance the two concepts the whole match. Of course this is not even taking into consideration all the split responsibilities that are put on the same bar. So yeah, very wrong about that. If you want to put it on a crip slash and train with apply I guess i can see brainless(and stupid as well), but on a ranger?

What is the difference between Conjure Flame and Kindle Arrows, both do the same, except Conjure can be removed. If anything, using Conjure takes more skill the Kindle Arrows.
2 second cast makes it more likely to interrupt, but a good interrupter should have no problems with the 1 second of Conjure Flame either. So so far Conjure Flame takes more skill to use then Apply Poison. (both are interruptible, conjure can be removed).
To make best use of Apply Poison you need to use tab+space+tab+space+ect+ect. To make best use of Conjure you hit something until it gets SoA or something on it and then switch target. So for the best use of Conjure you need to pay attention to what is happening. Which is a lot harder then tab+space. The rest of the bar doesn't matter, since those can both be the same.
So the only conclusion has to be that Conjure Flame takes more skill to use then Apply Poison. And eating a banana takes more skill then eating a grape. And since banana's are brainless, so are grapes and therefor I conclude that all skills in GW are brainless. You just need to want to see it.

Neo-LD · Apr 15, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Basically what you are saying here is that a good warrior will make better use of Rush then a bad warrior.

Yes.

Quote:

So now the question is, can a good player make better use of Shadow Prison then a bad player? The answer to that is of course yes, no doubt about that ... So just like Rush, Shadow Prison becomes better when the player is better. And according to you Rush isn't brainless. So you have yet to answer the original question. Why is Shadow Prison more brainless then a skill like Rush?

I apolgize for not making it explicit in my previous post, but I would have thought that by now, everyone would understand exactly why Shadow Prison is brainless and does not follow the same pattern as Gale, Apply, Rush, etc. But here, I'll walk through it again:

Shadow Prison is used for one and only one purpose: to circumvent inconveniences like time and distance in order make a spike faster and harder to see. There is no reward for multitasking, like with Apply. There is no reward for reflex, like with Distracting Shot. There is no reward for yomi, like with Diversion. There is no reward for awareness, like with Spirit Bond. There may be the slightest, tiniest reward for appraisal (judging when it would be best to make use the skill). But often, there is not even any reward there, for this judgement is nearly always replaced by 321 countdown. One need not think about when its best to use it: the caller will tell you. So the conclusion I come to is that no, a good player does not get significantly more out of Shadow Prison than a bad player does. Both of them can 123456 just the same.

Worse yet, lets take a closer look at the elements of the game that I already mentioned Shadow Prison lets a player ignore: time and distance. Say that you have a warrior that is on a team that is inflicting some good pressure on their opponents, and are using occaisional converging spikes as an amplification of that pressure. On a warrior without Shadow Prison, spiking as a warrior is relatively difficult. You have to arrive at melee range not too early or late, and you have to do it without giving away the spike target to the enemy monks. This situation does an excellent job rewarding player skill. Warriors with better timing and who are more subtle will be more successful than warriors who are clumsy and obvious. On the other side of the battle, the monks are working hard to keep their team up against the pressure, and all the while must be vigilantly watching the warriors to detect incoming spikes and have the prots ready in time. Correctly identifying the spike target before it happens can save a ton of energy. Monks with great battlefield awareness will last longer than monks that stare at HP bars.

However, all of that is destroyed by Shadow Prison and other shadowsteps. When those are present, no longer must a warrior be subtle or have good timing. No longer can a monk see a spike coming by watching the field. Every warrior can 1234 on the count of 321, just the same.

Shadow Prison does not reward player skill. A good player does not garner any more from it than a bad player does. And worse, Shadow Prison destroys other facets of the game that do reward player skill.

Quote:

And now for something completely different. I think Apply Poison is a brainless skill. Just think about it. You use it once every 24 seconds and suddenly your ranger becomes a lot better then it was before. Just by hitting one skill about twice a minute. A monkey can do that too, no problem. And it isn't like you can do more then one thing with the skill. All it does is making your arrows do poison after all. You can argue that you can use the effect in different ways, but that has nothing to do with the way you use the skill. You can just hit the other team one by one and spread poison, just tab+space+tab+space, no skill there. Compared to that hitting 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 takes lots of skill. And for the ones thinking I'm serious at this last part, check your sarcasm-alarm.

Finn already answered this for me.

EDIT - I see you decided to argue the point. I reiterate:

Spreading poison is a goal that is in direct competition with a ranger's other primary objective: interupting. A good ranger must be very good at multitasking in order to do both effectively. Again I will use the example: some rangers can poison so many people that you would think they ran disease. Others just cant. Theres a difference - namely player skill.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 15, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Shadow Prison is by no means a brainless skill. A good melee with Shadow Prison will utilize the mobility provided by its teleport + snare combo for a lot of different tricks and plays. You can push on a flagger moving out of monk range and snare + kill him without giving your spike away too much. You can overextend like a fiend, because SP is always available to jump back in range of your monks (within reason.) You can use multiple SPs to chain-snare a guy while the other team is retreating. Bad players won't think to do these things, but good players will and they'll be much more effective as a result.

If there is an argument against Shadow Prison, that argument is that it makes 321spiking too easy for melee characters. While I could see the argument previously, these days a ranger spike build is much scarier than SP assassins. If I wanted to play spike, I'd play with rangers and dodge the teleporting thing altogether.

The problem with assassins, as always, is the combo system. The combo system forces you to sit one target with a 4-skill attack chain, which goes contrary to the realities of GvG, where a single target gets protted to hell after only one or two attack skills. As a result of having to hit through prot, assassin skills keep getting buffed to the point where they're auto-kill combos in any situation where prot isn't an issue.

Riotgear · Apr 15, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I don't wanna get in this fight or anything but I think you misunderstood that.

In retrospect, so do I.

Quote:

That's fantastic and all but GW isn't an RTS. Having the choice of playing a risky specialized build (aka gimmick) that can exploit an opponent's weaknesses is a fundamental part of the game. Build advantage is a fundamental game mechanic.

Having drawbacks and advantages are a feature of RTS races as well. You could say GW builds are like having hundreds of races. However, proper balance would imply that a build that overemphasizes one aspect of play becomes overly vulnerable to another. Chosing to overemphasize part of your strategy should be inherently risky. "Build wars" exists when those risks do not have the neccessary drawbacks, forcing players to discard options that would be fine if not for being vulnerable to some particular overpowered build.

Of course there are differences between races and builds, I am simply using it as an example of how balance despite diversity needs to be achieved, and to point out that pre-game decisions shouldn't be a major factor. Victory is something that needs to be decided on the battlefield. Of course, there will always be bad and underprepared builds, but the issue is the number of GOOD options that exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Zuranthium, just if you haven't noticed, everyone else is talking about the cookie-cutter SP bar.

Of which Shadow Prison is largely the culprit. SP is basically an elite you can drop in to make playing the rest of your bar retardedly easy once every 20 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

The problem people have with Shadow Prison is that it rewards far too much for so little skill.

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Why is Shadow Prison more brainless then a skill like Rush?

25% speed boost which can't be combined with IAS vs. teleport and 66% snare. One lets you mitigate kiting in exchange for attack speed. One removes positioning and kiting from the equasion entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The problem with assassins, as always, is the combo system. The combo system forces you to sit one target with a 4-skill attack chain, which goes contrary to the realities of GvG, where a single target gets protted to hell after only one or two attack skills. As a result of having to hit through prot, assassin skills keep getting buffed to the point where they're auto-kill combos in any situation where prot isn't an issue.

This is another root problem, and another reason I wish they'd stop entertaining the concept of "solo-spike." Even when their ability to do so in an organized setting was bad, they provided decent training wheels for beginners in scrub PvP, which was fine. Not everything needs to be viable in GvG. No one's asking for Backfire to get buffed, for example. Forcing bad design into viability does not make the game better.

djbartek · Apr 15, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

This is another root problem, and another reason I wish they'd stop entertaining the concept of "solo-spike." Even when their ability to do so in an organized setting was bad, they provided decent training wheels for beginners in scrub PvP, which was fine. Not everything needs to be viable in GvG. No one's asking for Backfire to get buffed, for example. Forcing bad design into viability does not make the game better.

And nobody is asking to make sin spikes instant kills! It's the fact that Lead-Offhand-Dual REALLY suck with the recharge times they have(LMS-JS-DB recharges only 2 sec slower than Offhand-Dual-Offhand-Dual and deals A LOT LESS damage) so it's quite understandable why people tend to take O-D-O-D. If only Lead/Offhands following a Lead were buffed(recharge times decreased to about ~4 sec plus some shitty ones buffed) they would become a VIABLE pressure and worth taking.

The problem is also that vast majority of their elites are underpowered(not mentioning weak Deadly/Shadow Arts line overally), but it's a discussion for another topic.

As for Shadow Prison: There was a suggestion to make Black Spider Strike Offhand following a Lead and decrease it's recharge to 4 sec(with nerf to dmg it got, it's imo ok), so people would have to carry enchant as well(or be proted) because the only "leadless" offhand left(apart from BLS) would be Golden Phoenix Strike.

Zuranthium · Apr 15, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

This is another root problem, and another reason I wish they'd stop entertaining the concept of "solo-spike."

Uhh, what do you think they are doing by dropping the mininum duration on Warrior IAS skills? By the time it's all said done the only IAS stances left that will last long enough to complete an Assassin combo with SP will have problems of their own:

Frenzy - you risk taking a ton of damage while spiking
Flurry - the damage of the combo is dropped a decent amount
Tiger's Fury - not quite as fast and costs 10 energy

~Z

dgb · Apr 15, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

[skill]Tiger Stance[/skill]

OMGWTFHAX

Zuranthium · Apr 15, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Soon to have the duration changed as well. Your point?

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 15, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Shadow Prison is by no means a brainless skill. A good melee with Shadow Prison will utilize the mobility provided by its teleport + snare combo for a lot of different tricks and plays. You can push on a flagger moving out of monk range and snare + kill him without giving your spike away too much. You can overextend like a fiend, because SP is always available to jump back in range of your monks (within reason.) You can use multiple SPs to chain-snare a guy while the other team is retreating. Bad players won't think to do these things, but good players will and they'll be much more effective as a result.

When players start actually using those plays, I'll entertain that argument. As is, I havent seen anyone shadow prison for anything but 1234 in the past few months. And even if those few intelligent uses of Shadow Prison become common, they are still a miniscule compensation for all of the elements of player skill that Shadow Prison removed (as I outlined earlier).

Quote:

The problem with assassins, as always, is the combo system. The combo system forces you to sit one target with a 4-skill attack chain, which goes contrary to the realities of GvG, where a single target gets protted to hell after only one or two attack skills. As a result of having to hit through prot, assassin skills keep getting buffed to the point where they're auto-kill combos in any situation where prot isn't an issue.

I honestly dont think Anet has thought about it that much, or in such a complex manner. Far short of considering the implications of prot, they simply saw that assasins were underused, and buffed them, in accordance with their long standing, retarded balancing policy.

That said, I agree that the combo system is a huge problem, but for a different reason. The combo system makes every assasin attack skill incredibly narrow. It can be used in one and only one situation - right after the last attack skill. 123456 is the biggest offender to rewarding player skill in the game right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Soon to have the duration changed as well. Your point?

This thread is about changes that Anet has made, and changes that we wish Anet would implement. It is utterly pointless to consider or pretend we know exactly what Anet actually has in mind for the future.

Zuranthium · Apr 15, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

The 123456 bar is absolutely not the best way to play an Assassin. Just as making a character with really low health and heavy regen is not the best way to use PROT SPIRIT effectively for your team. Or making a Ranger with 16 Expertise so that VAMP TOUCH becomes efficient. And yet, people do these things constantly. However, none of them are a top-tier threat to good teams. Which leads me to wondering, once again, why you are so violently distraught over the matter?

Teleports are in the game, they are not leaving, they are a viable game mechanic, and good players HAVE shown that they are more than a gimmick and in fact something which adds another layer of skill to playing Guildwars. From this point we can only talk about how we wish to see the teleport skills changed. Arguing that all teleports should be removed from the game is like arguing that all of humankind should be vegetarian. Not gonna happen.

~Z

Neo-LD · Apr 16, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The 123456 bar is absolutely not the best way to play an Assassin. Just as making a character with really low health and heavy regen is not the best way to use PROT SPIRIT effectively for your team. Or making a Ranger with 16 Expertise so that VAMP TOUCH becomes efficient. And yet, people do these things constantly. However, none of them are a top-tier threat to good teams. Which leads me to wondering, once again, why you are so violently distraught over the matter?

I believe I've already answered this, Symbol tried making the same point several posts ago. My response remains unchanged:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

I believe you are trying to tell me that I should stop complaining about skills that dont require skill, because they dont see any play (in top level games)? If that is indeed what you are saying, then Im confused. I've been making the case for rewarding player skill for a long time before this thread, and my targets for offending skills have included Avatar of Grenth, Aegis, Light of Delieverance, Heal Party, Shadow Prison, Ritualist spirits, Necro Hexes, Paragon Shouts, Energizing Finale, Steady Stance, Mantra of Recovery, and Conjures. Forgive me, but those skills dont seem to quite fit into the category you imply.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Teleports are in the game, they are not leaving, they are a viable game mechanic, and good players HAVE shown that they are more than a gimmick and in fact something which adds another layer of skill to playing Guildwars. From this point we can only talk about how we wish to see the teleport skills changed. Arguing that all teleports should be removed from the game is like arguing that all of humankind should be vegetarian. Not gonna happen.

My concern lies only with what should happen to make Guild Wars a better competitive game - regardless of the probability that it actually will. In any case, I would be content with simply nerfing them into oblivion as a comprimise short of removing them from the game.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 16, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

When players start actually using those plays, I'll entertain that argument. As is, I havent seen anyone shadow prison for anything but 1234 in the past few months. And even if those few intelligent uses of Shadow Prison become common, they are still a miniscule compensation for all of the elements of player skill that Shadow Prison removed (as I outlined earlier).

Is Diversion a brainless skill because it's abused with Mantra of Recovery to allow bad mesmers to make a decent threat without ever switching targets? Is Gale brainless because spike teams use it to KD the infuser and ensure a kill with their countdown? Is Protective Spirit brainless because you can write a bot to farm PvE missions with it?

Of course not. Just because a skill can be used or comboed mindlessly doesn't mean the skill itself is mindless. Of all the skills on an SP sins' bar, Shadow Prison probably rewards player skill the most.

Look at the offensive skills on a standard GvG warrior's bar. Bull's Strike allows you to spike, play defensively, force prot, stop kiting, and get kills on the retreat. Protector's Strike, with its short recharge and powerful effect, rewards measured gameplay over button mashing. Frenzy rewards battlefield awareness with a cheap IAS. D-dagger is an interrupt with all the interesting choices that implies. Basically, the skills on a GvG warrior's bar have all kinds of interesting decisions and uses, and a good warrior will utilize his skills more effectively than a bad one.

Now look at the offensive skills on an SP sins' bar. They basically have their one conditional combo that they unleash on a target in the same order every time. A few of the skills have pointless conditions you have to watch out for (don't use Horns on balled up opponents), but you really only have one way to use the skills on your bar. The only really important skill is target choice, and you're not applying enough pressure outside of your combo to really force a target out of using its skills. A good player will use a sin combo in about the same way as a bad player, and the only notable difference is who you're using the combo on.

The combo system, not Shadow Prison, is what keeps assassins from becoming more than a gimmicky class for bad players. You must use these skills in this exact sequence or they don't even hit the opponent. Even if they weren't conditional, most of the assassin skills aren't interesting to begin with. One skill poisons the target, another skill does +damage, and most of the things with actual interesting effects are dual attacks like Horns of the Ox and Twisting Fangs.

I've sort of strayed from the topic of Shadow Prison, but debating whether Shadow Prison takes skill away from assassins just seems laughable to me, because it implies that the assassin class rewards 'skill' to begin with. All the current SP assassin template proves is that if you can only use your skills in one way and that combo is moderately effective, the build will be powerful even in the hands of bad players. Who would have guessed?

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Neo...

Guild Wars is a fantasy game in addition to being a competitive strategy game. Some things need to be in the game for flavor. That's why there are these many different, mythological roles in the game. Because people are attracted to this kind of game setting. Teleporting, different schools of spellcasting, and being able to wield an array medieval weapons are a big draw. These things need to be in the game and they need to be balanced, viable mechanics.

Also, a team of great players with the exact same build as a team of average players WILL do better than the lesser players, no matter how "mindless" the build. I don't for 1 second buy the argument than ANY build can't be executed better in some way by a great player as opposed to an average player. However, YES, it is important that the best builds out there require more skill. A solid build with a teleport incorporated requires great skill to maximize. If you don't think so, you're just misinformed at this point.

Some skills are simply going to be less "pro" than others. And that's just fine. There's nothing wrong with having some abilities be there just for a static or vanilla effect. The goal should be to mix those skills with other "tech" skills to create the best bars possible. I guess I also fundamentally disagree with you over the 123456 build, though. It rewarded bad players pretty well in certain situations but for builds that aren't just 100% spike oriented, there were certainly opportunites where great players could utilize the build quite a bit more than a poor player. However, I'm just going to have to be a broken record because, AGAIN, I fail to see what the problem was in the first place. If a build that requires little skill to work well is not the best option out there, WHAT exactly is the problem??? Who cares if a build can be "good" with little skill if it can't be the BEST with GREAT skill? As you said yourself, this a competitive game. The best people will just ignore things that are easy if they are simply that - easy, and effective against not-so-awesome opposition, but less effective at maximum potential than something else. ENERGIZING FINALE is something that was clearly just bad for the game. Shadow Prison? Most definitely not.

~Z

LightningHell · Apr 16, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

It rewarded bad players pretty well in certain situations but for builds that aren't just 100% spike oriented, there were certainly opportunites where great players could utilize the build quite a bit more than a poor player. However, I'm just going to have to be a broken because, AGAIN, I fail to see what the problem was in the first place. If a build that requires little skill to work well is not the best option out there, WHAT exactly is the problem???

I'd think the problem there would be it made a bad player look better than he/she actually is, and makes a good player look worse than he/she actually is.